War Economics: Leveling Robots or Weapons First?
War Robots University, as promised, is pleased to introduce Professor Z0S0. Dr. Z specializes in non-linear Zeusonometry and the rare Rhino and Raijin robots. His "U" is a little more, well ...
Fellow Pilots,
Happy Friday! I will provide insight on the age-old question of whether to level one's robots or weapons first. War Robots University has a very active social life with hard-partying kids carousing all weekend, so the faculty suggests getting your upgrades going now so you don't have to worry about them while you nurse that hangover!
The in-game recommendations prioritize raising the level of the weakest item in your hangar, with the goal of keeping all equipped items balanced. The conventional wisdom, oft repeated and drilled into all pilots on the forums, is to upgrade weapons one or two levels above your robots. Because War Robots is a game of resource allocation, you should seek to achieve maximum benefit for the lowest possible cost.
In economic and mathematical terms, it is best to level ROBOTS first.
Let's take a simple example - with your plasma Griffin on the field, you notice a Thunder Carnage rushing toward you. He is a deadly matchup for you - and vice versa. His Thunders start: BOOM. BOOM. BOOM. Your Tarans start melting the Carnage. If you win this shootout, it will be by superior firepower, superior health or both. But health and firepower have very different "ceilings," and one is much easier to hit than the other.
WAR ECONOMICS 101
If you level weapons, you get more firepower. If you level robots, you get more health. But are they equal in costs and benefits? NO. This is a common conceptual error because the two things seem like opposite sides of the same coin. In actuality, robots can hit their ceiling MUCH faster than weapons simply because there are only five to upgrade. There are 15-20 weapons in most hangars.
Thus, you can reach 100% of the health capacity for five robots in about a quarter of the time it takes to reach 100% of your capacity for damage.
Let's talk upgrade times. From level 8, you can bring a Griffin to level 12 in 291 hours, just over 12 days. For comparison, level 8 Magnums take 155 hours each and Tarans take 232 hours each. The total, 774 hours, is over 32 days. And those are light/medium weapons - heavies take far longer.
In another example, let's say you have leveled the weapons on your Griffin to 12, but left the robot at 8. When this robot is destroyed, your strongest weapons are gone for the remainder of the battle. When you maximize your health, it means keeping your weapons on the field for more time.
TIME IS DAMAGE
Time isn't money in War Robots - time is damage. If we take the amount of damage our weapons can do per minute as n, then surviving another thirty seconds means doing 1.5n, or fifty percent more damage. To raise weapon damage by 50%, we have to upgrade all of them by five levels (which, as previously mentioned, takes MUCH longer because you have many more weapons).
Once you have reached Diamond league, you will probably have robots and weapons around the game-wide and test server average - level 8. You will also have acquired some of the gear that you plan to use in Expert, Master, and finally Champion leagues. It is at this point that the U recommends taking your robots to level 12. Level 12 is 80% of the available health; Mark 2 level 12 is the logical next step, at which point you will have 100% of your available health/defensive capacity. Because these upgrades also benefit your physical and energy shields, prioritize robots with these attributes.
Professor Yat has recently upgraded one Lancelot (204K health) and one Ancile (114K) to Mark 2, level 12. The combination of the two, along with the Lancelot's physical shields, makes for a very stout brawler. Here, the enemy team rushes beacon ECHO on Power Plant.
After withstanding the initial assault, the Ancile regenerates. The airborne Griffin is out of position and can't make the kill.
The second airborne Griffin is toast ...
While you hold three beacons, the clock is your friend. Another enemy rush has almost killed Yat, but he's still clinging to that territory ...
With the Ancile fully regenerated, even a severely wounded robot can withstand hits from Trident Furies and Russian Death Button Griffins. Remember that 3-2 beacon matches end in seven minutes, so this first robot may last half the battle or more.
A Hover, fully upgraded, has 210K health. If it's one of the last robots after a brutal firefight, it can reach any part of any map to seal the deal.
UPDATE 13th May 2018 - credit reader Rohith Dsouza with this important insight (see comments below): Another good reason to upgrade one item at a time, whether you choose a robot or a weapon, is the enormous silver costs of the upper levels. A Dragoon, for instance, will cost 22.4M silver to go from level 10 to 11, and 36.4M from level 11 to 12. If your hangar has reached level 9 or 10 across the board, all your upgrades are costly. Take a newly acquired robot - like the Inquisitor obtained from supply drops - and bring it to 12, using the long upgrade time (in total, almost three weeks) to accumulate the 51M silver you will need for the last four levels.
In economics, there is always an "opportunity cost," or trade-off. The opportunity cost is something you can't get because of a choice you made. Here, the obvious trade-off is weapon upgrades. Without going into it too deeply, a balanced hangar at level 8 can have five level 12 robots in roughly the same time that it can have weapons at level 9. So a competitor who makes the choice for the weapons will have a 10% advantage in overall firepower, while the one who chooses the robots will have a 40% advantage in health. Go upgrade those bots!
Have a great weekend, and be careful with those keg stands,
Professor Z0S0
Fellow Pilots,
Happy Friday! I will provide insight on the age-old question of whether to level one's robots or weapons first. War Robots University has a very active social life with hard-partying kids carousing all weekend, so the faculty suggests getting your upgrades going now so you don't have to worry about them while you nurse that hangover!
The in-game recommendations prioritize raising the level of the weakest item in your hangar, with the goal of keeping all equipped items balanced. The conventional wisdom, oft repeated and drilled into all pilots on the forums, is to upgrade weapons one or two levels above your robots. Because War Robots is a game of resource allocation, you should seek to achieve maximum benefit for the lowest possible cost.
In economic and mathematical terms, it is best to level ROBOTS first.
Let's take a simple example - with your plasma Griffin on the field, you notice a Thunder Carnage rushing toward you. He is a deadly matchup for you - and vice versa. His Thunders start: BOOM. BOOM. BOOM. Your Tarans start melting the Carnage. If you win this shootout, it will be by superior firepower, superior health or both. But health and firepower have very different "ceilings," and one is much easier to hit than the other.
Leveling a Galahad to 12 meant survival for my colleague Dr. Yat ... note the amount of health left here - 2!
WAR ECONOMICS 101
If you level weapons, you get more firepower. If you level robots, you get more health. But are they equal in costs and benefits? NO. This is a common conceptual error because the two things seem like opposite sides of the same coin. In actuality, robots can hit their ceiling MUCH faster than weapons simply because there are only five to upgrade. There are 15-20 weapons in most hangars.
Thus, you can reach 100% of the health capacity for five robots in about a quarter of the time it takes to reach 100% of your capacity for damage.
Let's talk upgrade times. From level 8, you can bring a Griffin to level 12 in 291 hours, just over 12 days. For comparison, level 8 Magnums take 155 hours each and Tarans take 232 hours each. The total, 774 hours, is over 32 days. And those are light/medium weapons - heavies take far longer.
In another example, let's say you have leveled the weapons on your Griffin to 12, but left the robot at 8. When this robot is destroyed, your strongest weapons are gone for the remainder of the battle. When you maximize your health, it means keeping your weapons on the field for more time.
My Death Button Griffin, currently Mark 2 level 10, staying alive to fire another salvo ...
TIME IS DAMAGE
Time isn't money in War Robots - time is damage. If we take the amount of damage our weapons can do per minute as n, then surviving another thirty seconds means doing 1.5n, or fifty percent more damage. To raise weapon damage by 50%, we have to upgrade all of them by five levels (which, as previously mentioned, takes MUCH longer because you have many more weapons).
Once you have reached Diamond league, you will probably have robots and weapons around the game-wide and test server average - level 8. You will also have acquired some of the gear that you plan to use in Expert, Master, and finally Champion leagues. It is at this point that the U recommends taking your robots to level 12. Level 12 is 80% of the available health; Mark 2 level 12 is the logical next step, at which point you will have 100% of your available health/defensive capacity. Because these upgrades also benefit your physical and energy shields, prioritize robots with these attributes.
A carefully positioned Raijin can be nearly impossible to get off the battlefield!
Professor Yat has recently upgraded one Lancelot (204K health) and one Ancile (114K) to Mark 2, level 12. The combination of the two, along with the Lancelot's physical shields, makes for a very stout brawler. Here, the enemy team rushes beacon ECHO on Power Plant.
After withstanding the initial assault, the Ancile regenerates. The airborne Griffin is out of position and can't make the kill.
The second airborne Griffin is toast ...
While you hold three beacons, the clock is your friend. Another enemy rush has almost killed Yat, but he's still clinging to that territory ...
With the Ancile fully regenerated, even a severely wounded robot can withstand hits from Trident Furies and Russian Death Button Griffins. Remember that 3-2 beacon matches end in seven minutes, so this first robot may last half the battle or more.
A Hover, fully upgraded, has 210K health. If it's one of the last robots after a brutal firefight, it can reach any part of any map to seal the deal.
UPDATE 13th May 2018 - credit reader Rohith Dsouza with this important insight (see comments below): Another good reason to upgrade one item at a time, whether you choose a robot or a weapon, is the enormous silver costs of the upper levels. A Dragoon, for instance, will cost 22.4M silver to go from level 10 to 11, and 36.4M from level 11 to 12. If your hangar has reached level 9 or 10 across the board, all your upgrades are costly. Take a newly acquired robot - like the Inquisitor obtained from supply drops - and bring it to 12, using the long upgrade time (in total, almost three weeks) to accumulate the 51M silver you will need for the last four levels.
In economics, there is always an "opportunity cost," or trade-off. The opportunity cost is something you can't get because of a choice you made. Here, the obvious trade-off is weapon upgrades. Without going into it too deeply, a balanced hangar at level 8 can have five level 12 robots in roughly the same time that it can have weapons at level 9. So a competitor who makes the choice for the weapons will have a 10% advantage in overall firepower, while the one who chooses the robots will have a 40% advantage in health. Go upgrade those bots!
Have a great weekend, and be careful with those keg stands,
Professor Z0S0
Faculty Notes
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If you read the U's blog, hit the subscribe button here - top right - and at our YouTube channel! We do not (and can not) spam or bother you. You get an email notification when we post new content. Email the faculty at warrobotsu@gmail.com.Until the introduction of the Greek bots, Pixonic provided component items to War Robots University's professors/pilots for review. The content of War Robots U is created and edited by its authors exclusively. For an explanation of the relationship between Pixonic and the U, read this post!
The U is not just a blog ... we are also iOS clans #48669, #141459, and #139479. We are always looking for champion-league pilots, and welcome skilled communicators from around the world.
Please consider becoming a supporter of War Robots University. Patreon makes it possible, and the U's backers become part of an exclusive Discord server. Your screenies and video of in-game heroics will be immortalized; your in-game name shall strike fear in your enemies!
Become a Patron!
If you read the U's blog, hit the subscribe button here - top right - and at our YouTube channel! We do not (and can not) spam or bother you. You get an email notification when we post new content. Email the faculty at warrobotsu@gmail.com.
Until the introduction of the Greek bots, Pixonic provided component items to War Robots University's professors/pilots for review. The content of War Robots U is created and edited by its authors exclusively. For an explanation of the relationship between Pixonic and the U, read this post!
The U is not just a blog ... we are also iOS clans #48669, #141459, and #139479. We are always looking for champion-league pilots, and welcome skilled communicators from around the world.
The U is not just a blog ... we are also iOS clans #48669, #141459, and #139479. We are always looking for champion-league pilots, and welcome skilled communicators from around the world.
Pretty sure I left a comment earlier. Oh well...
ReplyDeleteWeapons have a higher chance of remaining useful and relevant throughout the whole game whereas bots come and go. Especially when the meta changes. So any silver invested in a weapon will give a higher ROI over time than silver spent giving more HP to a bot you might end up retiring from your hangar.
Also, by doing more damage, you prevent your enemy from returning fire for a longer time. This will not only compensate for having lower HP, but will also net you more silver since this is how you get most of it. On the other hand, higher HP for bots means higher repair costs.
Robots get 6.5% more HP per level while weapons gain 10% more damage. This 3.5% margin means that a lvl 12 weapon shooting a lvl 12 bot will chew the bot 14% faster than their lvl 8 counterparts. Imagine now, a lvl 12 weapon shooting a lvl 10 bot.
3 Orkans at level 12 will deal over 180k of damage in 3.2 sec. What difference will it make that your Griffin has 158k HP because it’s lvl 12 compared to 131k at lvl 10?
I’m sorry, but this is poorly thought out advice, right there.
Compare the COSTS of fully upgraded weapons with the COSTS of fully upgraded robots, you may see the point we are making. We are not arguing that the Griff survives the Orkan salvo. We are arguing that on average, its increased health means it will do more damage for less cost than if you upgraded its weapons.
DeleteI think this would apply to robots which are more likely to remain viable than not .. I wouldn't upgrade what soon to be an obsolete bot just as I wouldn't a light weapon
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely right - the Destrier is probably not a good choice for this strategy, but your brand new Kumiho is golden for a really long time. While damage has changed because of all the robots with 3-4 medium slots, speed hasn't changed since the introduction of the Dash robots. Unless something faster comes into the game, upgrade away.
DeleteSo I’ve been considering purchasing a Rogatka and running that in place of a Griffin. My Griffins have decent firepower, but lack the speed I need take beacons. My question is: would a DB Rogatka in place of a DB Griffin be a good idea or bad?
ReplyDeleteThe DB Griff is a tried and true ambush machine, but Rogatka is much faster, so as you correctly note, you can do some harassment and beacon stealing utilizing your speed. I love it. I also recommend Hover, which has more health and firepower plus the glide ability. Either way, you still have your Griffin, the weapons, and a new "gear" for running at a very different speed. DON'T SACRIFICE A ROBOT by running it first, though. Speed really kills late in battles. Enjoy!
DeleteI used to think like this. But the situation is more complicated. If you last through to the end of the battle then you are still able to do damage, and therefore contribute continually.
ReplyDeleteBut whilst engaged in combat your contribution is more damage based.
If you imagine Pixonic were to allow is a 6 bot hangar, the main advantage for most players would be choice, not longevity. Some games end because of team population collapse, but generally it is beacon capture that determines the winner. If you are engaged deep in enemy territory then your total damage will be a combination of lifetime and damage output, favoring your argument of spending silver on bot upgrades, for efficiency. But scuffles close to the home beacon can become more intense and require the most dps you can muster. If you lose a bot, spawn another and get back into the fight.
On larger maps, heavy bots with short range weapons take you out of action for a significant part of the time, so high health will increase contact time, and on average your total damage. You also need to suck up long range fire before even getting to the conflict zone. But long range support bots can go the whole match without taking any damage.
Given the exponential cost increase on all upgrades, I would stick to the developers suggestion and upgrade everything equally.
It's not a bad argument you make, at all. High damage situations still kill Ancilots and other really tough robots, no matter how much health. Play against Criminal Minds or Firestorm, and they hit you simultaneously with - literally - dozens of maxed out Shocktrains. The reason we like taking robots to 12 at a certain point (when all weapons are 9 or 10 and a pilot has 2-3 "keeper" bots) is the relatively low cost of the advantage. This goes beyond the goal of avoiding elimination by mech out. It may allow a pilot to keep his best robot/weapons on the field longer and deliver the salvo or capture the beacon that wins the match.; it may allow you to survive an encounter that would normally destroy you. We'd definitely prefer the developer strategy (also yours) to the conventional wisdom of "weapons two levels above robots" for many reasons. The most important, of course, is that hardy robots help you survive/win, while devastating weapons help you score damage and soar in the rankings. You quickly meet folks with the resources to do both - and your hangar full of glass cannons gets shattered REAL fast. Thanks for taking the time to make an obviously well-informed comment!
DeleteWow that was a surprising read! I always thought weapons are more important. I'm running level 10/11 weapons and level 9 bots in master 2. I was planning to upgrade weapons to level 12 first it takes so much silver and time. I don't even have enough silver! And this article is just what i wanted to read. Gonna start upgrading my main boys to lvll12
ReplyDelete*main bots
DeleteRohith, good point about the silver. We've been thinking the same thing. When you get to the point where you can upgrade one item at a time, it eases the silver shortage because you can save for the biggest upgrades while you do the cheaper ones. When you hit level 9 and 10 with all your items, it becomes very difficult to stockpile enough silver to run those upgrades one after another.
DeletePART 1:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the intriguing post. This is EatStinkyTofu from the Wiki clan. It's made me re-think some of my long-held beliefs about this game. I agree in part and disagree in part. Although I'm re-hashing thoughts of prior replies, it might be useful to organize them together.
I agree that the ancient axiom of "weapons before bots" is obsolete and overly simplified advice. It was based on the original matchmaker system that placed players in different queues determined by an arbitrary, average level of your weapons and bots (eg Cossack lvl 12 with punisher lvl 1 = cossack lvl 1 with punisher lvl 12). This advice was reinforced by the principle that gains in DPS heavily outweighed gains in HP. Once large numbers of bots with built-in physical and ancile shields were added to the game, this principle started becoming much less generalizable, as bot level influenced alternative (and renewable) HP sources.
This post clearly demonstrates that leveling up a bot compared to weapon is much more cost-efficient when comparing the relative (by percentage) increase of HP vs damage. And, I agree that longer survival equals increased potential for damage dealt during a match.
However, the fundamental problem is that leveling up bots and weapons is not directly comparable--HP can not be replenished (until the healing bots arrive), while ammunition is replenished. I agree with Dominic and Neil that damage dealing from a weapon is additive over time whereas HP is not. This fundamental difference between HP and weapon damage makes a straight comparison fallacious. This is a basic apples to oranges problem. Ideally, you could more accurately describe a bot's total potential damage per second that accounted for weapon levels AND added time-of-survival of bot level... or something... and give the universal metric a fancy name, like StinkyTofu units damage per second (STUDS). But, it's not simple. It's really hard to know how much more potential damage or survival an extra 10,000 HP plus 6,000 max ancile strength equals......
Two other factors need to be considered, which are less directly related to the analysis of this post.
First, the longevity of an item should be considered, as commented on by Basem. Orkans and Haechi remain meta relavent through champions league. Punishers and Boa do not.
Second, acquisition cost changes dynamically, as noted by Paul and Rohith. At low levels, the cost and time needed to level up weapons/bots is really low and fast, respectively. I can get a 6/6 competition hangar ready within a week, probably spending less than 15 million Ag. But, spending at high levels (11+), the cost of Ag and time (grinding and waiting) gets really high... looking at a level 12 upgrade, you're looking at 20-25 million and about 1 week of time.
PART 2:
ReplyDeleteIn summary, I think there are 3 major factors to consider:
1) absolute cost (Ag and time)
2) cost-effiency
3) longevity
So, after thinking (and typing) a lot, I'd provide this modified advice:
1) At low competition levels (diamond and under?), I'd stick with weapons over bots. The acquisition costs is so low, you can leverage high DPS loadouts against uninformed and novice pilots who are leveling bots/weapons equally. An unrelated bonus, is that fielding bots with relatively lower survivability will force you to improve your piloting technique if you can't just win by walking straight and blasting away. It will prepare you for expert-masters level play.
2) At mid level competition (expert-masters?), I agree with this post that the cost-effectiveness of bot upgrades starts making a lot more sense. However, for sub-meta bots (eg griffin, lancelot), I'd stop at level 10. I don't think it's worth the cost, if you're gonna end up replacing it. For meta bots (eg spectre, haechi), I now think going up to level 12 is a good idea if you have to make a choice between weapons and bots.
3) At top level competition, spend a lot of money. haha
Here's a recent example:
I was deciding on a level 12 upgrade between a shocktrain, ember, and haechi. The cost for these is in the 20-25 million range, which is a significant amount of game-time for me. I decided to go for the ember -- it's an OP weapon that's not going anywhere and since I am using only a single one on an inquisitor, it seems like a good idea to (near) maximize its damage potential. In second place was the Haechi. Even though it's outclassed by spectre, it's still a staple of meta play, so it's probably next on the list of level 12 upgrades. Finally, in agreement with this post's argument about cost-efficiency, I decided against shocktrain because the added damage potential is so small (about 1,400 for full charge) for the cost of 20 million Ag... nobody on the receiving end would notice a difference between a single level 11 vs 12 shocktrain. In contrast to the ember, to maximize the shocktrain damage potential, you really need to upgrade in bulk. Also in comparison, the Haechi upgraded HP (and ancile) strength of the level 12 haechi is more likely to improve its overall DPS in gameplay.
Absolutely - I'd summarize your two comments as "context matters." The pilot really needs to consider the overall hangar when making decisions. As you probably surmised, the post is designed to provoke thought. So many people blindly upgrade! Thanks for your well informed advice, and I'll advise readers to consider it when they make their decisions.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteBet you guys wish you could have seen the future and saw how crazy it all gets. BTW, a lot of this discussion could be solved by spending a few bucks here and there.
ReplyDeletetoo much stuff like ares and ao jun you have to kill them in time so they dont have another ability
ReplyDeleteARES ARE OP HELP I ONLY GOT A BUTCH, GRIFIN WITH THE GRIFFIN PILOT, FUJIN, AND A RAYKER WITH DEVASTATOR
ReplyDelete